Zemplee Podcast : Episode 9

Every day, thousands of Americans are turning 65 and older, and most of them will need care their families aren't prepared to give. Caregiving is hard. Technology shouldn't make that harder. This is AI-Powered Caregiving, where we explore how technology is stepping into that caregiving gap. I'm Ishania Anthapur, your host and product manager at Zempley, and this is AI-Powered Caregiving.

I'm excited to introduce today's guest, Melissa Brown. Melissa is a Chief Operating Officer at Gravity Consulting, and she helps run WellQuest Home Health as the Chief Strategy Officer. She has more than 20 years of experience as an OT, healthcare leader, operations consultant across the skilled nursing, hospital, and home care settings. So we're working with a wealth of knowledge here, and I'm really excited to get into this conversation.

Melissa Brown (01:08.636)

Me too, thanks so much for having me.

Ishanya Anthapur (01:09.046)

She's, of course, Melissa. You're also known industry-wide as a pragmatic problem solver and a self-described PDPM nerd, which is going to lead to my first question. What is a PDPM nerd and why is this important for caregivers or family caregivers to know about?

Melissa Brown (01:33.108)

That's a great question. So PDPM is the payment model for skilled nursing facilities, nursing homes to receive reimbursement while a patient is there for a short course of rehab and usually is intending to go back home or to their prior level of living. It changed about five years ago. And the main focus there was to realign the incentives in nursing homes to treat everything that a patient needs treated rather than the old model, which really favored therapy as the primary driver of reimbursement.

And so what does this mean to a caregiver or a potential patient that's looking into nursing home care? It means you want to really ask some pointed questions. If you're there for short-term rehab, you want to make sure you can get the rehab that you need. Unfortunately, what we've seen out there is that some of the, you know, maybe not the best actors out there have done things like cut the minutes for patients to only 15 minutes a day per discipline.

which obviously is not really gonna help somebody be able to restore their independence and get back home and really thrive the way we would want them to. So one of the gut check questions that I always tell people is ask how many minutes per day on average do they get PT and OT? And it should be somewhere between 30 to 40 minutes per day. We know from some of the regulations and rules that have come out from Medicare, that's about what everybody'sproviding on average across the nation. And that's really nicely correlated with

good outcomes and patients being able to get back home.

Ishanya Anthapur (03:01.314)

That makes a lot of sense. feel like I've never been to a physical therapy appointment that's less than 20 minutes. You're just starting the stretches at that point, right? So.

Melissa Brown (03:13.319)

Yeah, absolutely. And it's been heartbreaking to see in some of these situations because in most nursing homes, another company called a contract therapy company runs the therapy department. And because of the way contracts got negotiated, they're really not getting enough reimbursement to provide enough therapy services. So believe it or not, this is happening in a lot of places. So it's a good.

question to ask. Again, if you're getting less than 30 or 40 minutes on average per day, and it only needs to be about five days a week, that's very typical. People don't really do seven days a week therapy anymore. But as long as you're hitting that threshold and they also have good outcomes on Medicare's website called Care Compare, where you can go and look at how all of them rank against each other, you're looking for a four or five star facility. And if they also provide that amount of therapy, that's probably gonna be a good location for you to consider.

Ishanya Anthapur (04:01.41)

That's a great resource. And I'm wondering if you can just describe a little bit what PDPM means and then also how you got into it. What was the resources that you really dove into?

Melissa Brown (04:14.579)

Yes, so PDPM stands for the patient driven payment model, which sounds wonderful in real life. It kind of means they redistributed the wealth. So under the old system, basically if therapy was providing services, that almost 100 %determined payment and then volume, the number of minutes you provided in therapy was what determined payment and everything else kind of didn't matter. So if a patient was really medically complex, they had wounds, had...

a vent or a trach, they had all these other needs, you didn't really get reimbursed for them. And so that made facilities really kind of look for patients that were very easy to rehab and patients that were very medically complex were quoteunquote undesirable. And so a lot of those patients had a hard time getting placed in quality nursing homes. And so this new system was designed to sort of redistribute the focus and the attention and spread it across therapy and nursing and a new category called non-therapy ancillary, which is

just for all sorts of things like wounds, respiratory services, things like that. I became involved in PDPM. used to be in the contract therapy role. I've been doing consulting for a long time. We oversee a lot of therapy programs. with the shift happening, we knew that therapy was going to take a different role in reimbursement and a different role in the significance of care in nursing homes. And so I just decided I was going to buckle down and read the over 5,000 pages of regulations and something called Text

technical expert panel reports, which is basically a research study that Medicare does to try to decide how should we set this up? What's gonna work? What's gonna get the kind of outcomes we want? So I'm that nerd that's read those 5,000 pages to really dive super deep, understand, and then be able to help my clients, the nursing homes and other providers understand how can they position themselves best to provide the best care they can for patients and get the reimbursement they deserve so they can continue to provide the best care for patients.

Ishanya Anthapur (06:05.538)

Wow, you heard it here, everyone. Melissa read those pages so you don't have to. Just go straight to her with your questions and for your strategy tips. When a family is touring facilities, you mentioned that they should definitely ask about the minutes provided, if there's any minimums, if they're falling underneath that 30 minute mark. Are there any other specifics you think?

Melissa Brown (06:13.743)

Absolutely. Yes.

Ishanya Anthapur (06:33.186)

people should be on the lookout for when they're looking to be in a new facility or a new nursing home, new environment.

Melissa Brown (06:41.139)

think this is a really helpful thing to dive into. I've had the opportunity to help some of my friends and family members walk through these doors and figure out what type of place they should go into. And I think the number one best thing that you can look at is do you get good eye contact from patients and from staff when you walk down the hallway? Does everyone look up and smile at you? It's the number one easiest way to tell is this the right place for my mom, my dad, my loved one to receive care.

You know, I was walking through this interesting journey with some friends a few years ago. I had a friend of ours who was an occupational therapist and she unfortunately got Alzheimer's at a young age. It was very progressive. And within six months, she went from being an occupational therapist working in a hospital to being admitted to an assisted living herself. And it was just really a tragic set of circumstances. But I was helping them with touring facilities and talkingthem through this. And it was really instructive. I said to them, don't look at the chandeliers and the paint color. Would it be great if we could be in a facility that has

Ishanya Anthapur (07:37.208)

Mm.

Melissa Brown (07:38.81)

nice modern appearance, sure. But a lot of good facilities out there were built in the 90s or early 2000s and they might not have the nicest looking appearance for some of those details. The truth is at the end of the day, when you and I go home, what will break our hearts is if our loved one does not receive the good care they need. And we're not going to care that much about whether or not the chandelier was cool and the paint color was modern. So when it comes down to it, the most important thing is do you think this person's going to get good care?

does this have the right kind of feel to it? know, one of the tours that we went on, everybody we walked down the hallway with talked to us. Every person that was taking us on the tour would stop and talk to patients and patients didn't act like...

Who are you? Why are you talking to me like you're putting on an act? They act like I know this person and their body language told me they were comfortable with this person. And that really conveyed to me that this was a high qualitycare location, that everybody was engaged, everybody cared, and they really had the right philosophy. And we've been very pleased with the care that she's received in that community. So I think that eye contact, the smiling, and just the patient interaction that you observe, I mean, if you walk into some place and it...

makes your stomach churn and things don't look great, that's probably not the right place to go. know, unfortunately there are places like that out there.

Ishanya Anthapur (08:54.626)

Yeah, I can really see that. And I think that's a great thing to aspire for is, you really want to think about.

how am I or how's my loved one going to be treated here? It's really easy to get swayed by that new coat of paint or this like fancy cafeteria or you know the lunch menu and I think yeah we've heard stories too where people fall quote-unquote fall for those gimmicks but at the end of the day you're there to be taken care of and the people caregiving is such a human thing it's so based on human interaction.

No matter how much technology comes in, think humans will still be essential for the care experience. And so it makes sense that that's kind of the number one thing you want to look out for. Actually, I'm wondering because you mentioned

that you had a friend who was an OT that kind of developed early onset Alzheimer's, have you, and you jumped in for their care, what is your experience? Are you a caregiver currently? Have you been a caregiver in your family? Sounds like you're doing it for your friends, but yeah, what's your experience with caregiving?

Melissa Brown (10:07.069)

Yeah, you I haven't had the responsibility of true caregiving laid on my shoulders yet. There just hasn't been anyone in my life that I needed to do that for. But in my church, we're all very, very close. Most of us have been there our entire lives and we really are like a family. And so I've had the opportunity in my church as different members have had needs to be able to be that resource that the pastors or elders could say, hey, you she has a lot of experience in senior living. Maybe you could ask her a few questions.

Ishanya Anthapur (10:26.657)

Yeah.

Melissa Brown (10:33.149)

You know, just recently, one of my best friends heard dad's passing away and I helped them figure out what type of nursing home they should be looked for and advocating for that. And I've helped them figure out when was it the right time to think about comfort measures? When is it the right time to think about some different medications? And, you know, I found it's really helpful to just empower people with information and then step back and let them make those decisions because nobody really wants to be pushed. And I think it really helps with closure and the processing of grief.

to allow people to come to a comfort level with some of those decisions when they're ready to do it. So I like to just provide information, provide guidance and step back and let people feel that they really had a lot of authority in that final decision.

Ishanya Anthapur (11:16.854)

Yeah, that's amazing. I think in this complex world of senior living, home care, there is just so many different avenues that having resources is really key. And you're crucial part of the caregiving, you know, continuum, the caregiving circle, even if you're not a direct caregiver, as you said yourself.

Melissa Brown (11:38.589)

Yeah, agreed.

Ishanya Anthapur (11:42.287)

My next question would be your career spans over clinical practice, operations, and now consulting strategy, management. So in your opinion, from an operational standpoint, what do you think of EMRs?

Melissa Brown (12:01.517)

That is a loaded question and I would love to answer it for you. I've been so frustrated with EMRs for at least the last 10 years. Technology has come so far in the last 20 years and it's no fault of any of the big EMRs out there. They were all created in the late 90s, early 2000s. They all have that basic look of windows at that point in time. A lot of them have a very spreadsheet layout which

Ishanya Anthapur (12:23.177)

Melissa Brown (12:27.547)

As a consultant that goes back and forth from all sorts of EMRs and literally sometimes spends my entire day just auditing it in an EMR, it's pretty miserable to look at. It's just pretty miserable to look at. And I think as a clinician, my frustration is the same as so many clinicians out there. Not one of us went to school as a clinician to do documentation for 50 % or more of our day. Not one of us went to school so we could sit in front of a computer all day. And I think EMRs really need to...

reimagine themselves and reinvigorate themselves. I'm not sure what some of these bigger, older EMRs can even do because the platform was designed in a way that doesn't really allow for modernity of what's happening today. But what we're interested in, and we're actually working on project right now, I can only say so much because it's pre-market, but we're helping a really passionate client of ours create an EMR. And his story is really interesting. So he watched his father go through his end of life circumstances and he was just really appalled at

the quality of care that was provided. And luckily he has deep enough pockets that he can make a difference in the world. And he came to us and said, I want to change the world. I want to change the world of healthcare. How can I do it? And so we started with him doing home care, home health, getting into outpatient therapy, becoming an assisted living provider. We're in the midst of working through all those things and getting them up and running right now. And in the process of starting his home health home care agency, he said to us,

Why is this EMR so bad? Can't you find me a better one? And we said, no, they don't exist. This is the best one that's out there. And he said, but AI, keep hearing AI. I said, in almost every instance, if the AI is actually embedded in the ER EMR, it's very anemic and it doesn't actually give you anything of value. And then if it's an add-on, another system you have to buy, it's an additional cost. You usually have to log into that system and log into your EMR. And the truth is most people out in field will never do that. So you buy and invest in the system.

Ishanya Anthapur (14:18.702)

Hmm.

Melissa Brown (14:19.379)

that nobody actually uses. doesn't actually impact your bottom line or the quality of care or anything like that. So the project we're working on now is really bringing those two things together. So an EMR platform designed from the beginning with AI at the center of everything that it does and really freeing the clinicians up from being documenters to getting them back to providing clinical care every day. And we should be releasing it here by the fall of 2026. So I'mreally excited to get it out there, but I am so passionate about this because I think

We've really missed the mark and AI has opened up a huge opportunity for us to get people back to care and out of documentation.

Ishanya Anthapur (14:57.654)

Yeah, I mean, it's very interesting to me, like how slow these the companies that own and run these are to evolve because

Other large corporations like they survive a large tech on the tech side, they survive. Yes, they have built their tech product in the nineties or the eighties, but they survive by acquiring new startups and incorporating those products directly into their systems. Right. And it seems like these companies aren't necessarily doing that. And if they are, it's going so slowly. And like you said, the features they're able to output are not directly impactful for.

solving these problems of like tons of documentation, billing first approaches. Yeah, so this is a really exciting project. I'm super excited for you and for the partner that you're working with. And we'll be watching the news for news of this release. You said fall 2026, roughly.

Melissa Brown (15:54.099)

Thank

Melissa Brown (16:01.297)

Yes, that's the plan. We're on the trajectory. What I've learned from this is very interesting. You know, in all these years of using EMRs, I've always been frustrated as an analyst that I can't put my hands on information that I know is in the EMR. I know for sure that they documented X, Y, and Z, and I know where goes in the documentation, but I can't actually run any business intelligence or reports or analytics on it. So a lot of times when I'm doing audits and consulting, I'vegot to do things manually, which is insane, right?

Ishanya Anthapur (16:13.112)

Hmm.

Melissa Brown (16:26.865)

And it's not the EMR's fault, right? A lot of these ones that were built so long ago, the way they build the native layer just doesn't allow for that without a complete redesign from the ground up. So it's not really their fault, but it's a problem. And this day and age data is king and data should direct us to move and work differently. So one of things I always say to owners is if you're thinking about adding a technology to your community, what you need to ask yourself, is this actually going to change what I choose to do? I can get information, but does this information make me say,

Based on that data analytic that I just pulled, I need to go now and do X, Y, and Z today. I know what I need to do. I know what needs to change. I know who to talk to. And I think Simpli is a great example of a product that tells you, hey, this patient fell last night or appears to fall last night. Okay, I better go follow up with them. Or they're having a significant increase in trips to the bathroom over the last 48 hours. They might have a UTI. I better go test that. So that kind of technology that has a direct outcome that leads you to take action.

That's the kind of technology you want to have in your EMRs or as an add-on to the EMR.

Ishanya Anthapur (17:34.073)

That makes complete sense to me. mean, obviously working for health tech company, we're very focused on, you know, how we've structured data and then how we take that data, analyze it and provide actionable insights. in your opinion, like, this just because EMRs are not evolving to integrate these new approaches? said the systems are built a long time ago. Is this just not how they imagined, healthcare data being back even

20 years ago, I can imagine even 20 years ago, there was a lot of patient data and people were still probably action oriented, right?

Melissa Brown (18:12.045)

You'd be surprised, 20 years ago, there was a lot less patient data. There was very little you could even put your hands on Medicare. 20 years ago, maybe 25 years ago, didn't even have databases that you could access like you can today and run all sorts of analytics. So that is a newer thing and these were designed. mean, they came out in the late 90s, early 2000s. So they were designed several years before that, right? And so a lot of them, I don't think it was even in people's minds as a possibility of something that could happen or would be necessary.

You notice when you're doing software development, you have to make value cost based decisions all along the way of is this worth the investment of time now? Will it will be better to do this later or do we even have the resources to invest in it? And so if there wasn't a clear market pattern that demonstrated the need for the appetite for data, they really didn't build the native layer to allow them to be able to get their hands on the data. And so.

A lot of the data is just lost in the EMR. And there are some systems out there that allow you to kind of put an interface over top and it'll give you all sorts of notifications about things that you should be paying attention to. The problem with a system like that is that because it's trying to be so comprehensive, there's usually so many false negatives that, or sorry, false positives that people grow weary of the system and start to ignore it after just a couple of months. So again, because it wasn't designed the right way for this purpose,

from an AI-oriented, from a research-oriented, from a data-oriented perspective from the beginning, it really, you're not able to access that information today.

Ishanya Anthapur (19:44.899)

Yeah, we're talking about AI. There's a lot of questions and excitement around it in healthcare. And we are also really excited about what AI can do for improving senior care and specifically like senior living settings, home care settings. I'mcurious as to what you think about where AI is really going to add value.

And if you think families are going to be able to see how that is helping their loved ones care.

Melissa Brown (20:16.519)

Yeah, it's a really interesting question because I think it's kind of, it depends on who's using it, right? So as a caregiver, the types of things that I would use AI for are to help me understand what's going on with my loved one. I would pull up my phone, open up the dictation and chat GPT and just say, this is what I saw with my father or my sister or my friend, my loved one today in the nursing home, in the hospital. These are the medications they're on. This is what the doctor said. I don't understand this, walk me through it. And you'd be amazed.

Ishanya Anthapur (20:45.154)

Mm.

Melissa Brown (20:45.895)

how helpful it is. It's like having your medical bestie right by your side, giving you some pretty good, very, you know, pedestrian level, like non-clinical level content to help you understand and work your way through it. You know, even my friend whose father's passing away right now, you know, it was really helpful when they got some additional information from hospice to understand some of the things that are happening in his experience as he's walking through all of this. So,

information is king and unfortunately, because staffing is so short staffed in all these communities, all these healthcare facilities, being able to have that AI friend that you can go talk to and get some explanation, some clarification and say, is this normal? Does this happen when a patient's had this type of surgery or this type of injury? Is it normal when they're on this medication to have this kind of side effect? Is it normal when they're in the active dying phase to have this type of symptom? And what are some things that you can advocate for?

on behalf of that patient, what are some types of medications or things that you can say, hey, this is what I'd like us to try nurse or doctor, what do you think of that? And then you can collaborate with them rather than saying, I see a problem and I have no idea what to do and I hope the nurse has a good idea, right? They are definitely great resources, they are the experts in providing this care, but even as clinicians, family members will come to me and say something like, that's a great idea, we should do that. So it's great to be able to be someone that can get some more education and understanding through AI and be able to advocate

more effectively on behalf of your loved ones.

Ishanya Anthapur (22:16.558)

I think that's great. I've actually had this experience recently with not with me, but with a close friend and it's so true. I think the previous era, we're so used to relying on the doctor, the nurse practitioner, whoever you're seeing for everything, every aspect of your care, you just kind of show up, you're explaining your problem and you kind of expect them to know, but.

I love this model where you can kind of come in prepared. You have your questions, you have your information, and it really becomes a conversation of like, this is what I've learned. This is what I think will work for me. Can you do a proof of this? Like, what do you think of this? And I think that also helps with the on the nurse's side too. Like they're not just they're trying to.

They don't have to control every single aspect of every single patient, but it really becomes a conversation. For example, my friend recently was experiencing a sore throat for two weeks. It so random. They never get sore throats. And they thought it was strep. They were worried. And they were super worried. But eventually, they just put stuff into Gemini. And they realized it was a new medication they were taking. And they were able to then, they had gone to urgent care. The urgent care didn't figure this out, right?

And so they were really upset and they put them in Gegemini. Gegemini was like, it's probably this new medication. One of the less common side effects is having a sore throat, but it's there and it's because of the dehydration of, it's not because you're actually sick. So it was able to figure this out for that person and they were relieved. They stopped the medication, sore throat gone. So, you know, they went back to their doctor and discussed it, of course, but

It saved them a lot of peace of time and energy and gave them lot of peace of mind. And yeah, I'm really excited for what AI and being able information is king, as you said, but there's so much of it that is kind of hard for any one person to distill it all down into something actionable. I think that's where AI can really help.

Melissa Brown (24:23.731)

Yeah, and I think, you for years we've been Googling it, right? You know, we go and search and then you're reading through articles and, you know, there's so many legal ramifications for someplace like the Mayo Clinic, for example, to publish an article about cancer. They have to be so careful about what they say. And Chad GBT is just designed differently to sort of say, I'm not gonna tell you what to do. I'm not gonna give you medical advice. I'm not an official medical source, but based on all the information out there.

Ishanya Anthapur (24:27.008)

You

Melissa Brown (24:47.675)

let me give you some things to think about. And as you read through, you know, maybe five out of the 10 things it says, you're like, no, no, no, but five out of the 10 things you're like, okay, that makes sense. Or that's a road to go down just like your friend did. Okay, let me try and see if getting rid of this medication will help. So I find it to be a wonderful resource when, you know, let's just be honest, healthcare professionals out there, I was just reminded of this this week with something me and my husband were going through with his illness. It is so much more of an art than a science. And that is just the truth.

Ishanya Anthapur (25:16.11)

Hmm.

Melissa Brown (25:16.583)

We talked to three different doctors on the same day, all for the same issue, and they all gave us a totally different opinion about what the course of treatment was and why one medication should have worked or didn't work. It was unbelievable how different it was. And I think they were all well-qualified. I don't think any of them wasn't doing a great job and didn't have good intent at heart. But it just reminded me again how much of healthcare is an art and not a science, and there aren't perfect answers. And for some reason, the way CHAT, GPT, or other AIs are designed,

It really helped more often lead me to the answer I need than not.

Ishanya Anthapur (25:50.255)

And I think it's because you get to ask the questions and have that almost a conversation. And they're really designed for that, right? They're really designed to look at your question specifically. And they can just do it holistically. And they have a wealth of knowledge they're drawing from. So I'm totally with you. And I'm really excited for the future of health care and the future of AI and health care.

Melissa Brown (26:13.937)

Now me too, I think we have no idea what's going to come next. was just watching an episode, an old episode of Star Trek and they had basically, it was very similar to what we're doing with AI today, except it was in 3D. was, you would just say what you wanted the environment to be and what kind of person you wanted to spend time with in that environment. And he kept just revising it. And I thought to myself, this is just like AI right now. I go in and say, generate this picture, change the colors, change the look on her face.

change the color of her hair, change the way this artifact looks in the photo. And I work my way through till I get the photo that I want, right? And it's amazing how AI is just evolving and opening doors that just were not available to us five years ago. They just weren't, but they are today. And I think anyone who's hesitant to use AI, the same things everyone's saying about AI are the same things everybody said about the internet in the late nineties. It's gonna take over all the jobs.

technology is going to take over humanity, it's the end of the world, it's the end of society. And there have been drawbacks, but there have been a plethora of positives. So, I think we all have to be smart about how we use AI and I don't take everything AI says at face value. It definitely hallucinates and makes mistakes and you got to check sources and things like that. But it is a very powerful tool in the right use cases.

Ishanya Anthapur (27:08.909)

Hmm.

Ishanya Anthapur (27:30.636)

Very well put, very well said. Thank you, Melissa. I wanna wrap things up with one final kind of fun question. If you could wave a magic wand and change anything about aging in America, what would it be and why?

Melissa Brown (27:46.75)

You know, I recently was exposed to this idea and I think it perfectly encapsulates what I think is missing in a lot of senior care and what needs to change. And it's the word, Juvenessence. And it's the idea of bringing the youthfulness, the vitality, the enthusiasm, the flexibility, the willingness to learn and embrace new ideas that you tend to have in your 20s, bringing that forward into later ages and combining it with your maturity, your knowledge, your experience.

and being able to just embrace new things as they come, but also be smart enough and savvy enough to say, okay, that's not gonna quite work in my situation. How do I make the right adjustments to make that work? Or when is this a good investment and not a good investment? So I recently just visited a community last week where the CEO practices this. And I was amazed how it started at the top and from the top down, everyone, patients and coworkers, everybody at every level from leadership on down.

Ishanya Anthapur (28:44.078)

Mm.

Melissa Brown (28:46.649)

everybody basically was that kind of a person. sort of attracted people that were also Juvenessant to her. And it was a really unique campus. I have never experienced something like this on the campus before. So if I could take what they're doing there and bottle that up and put it all over senior care in the world and even apply it to seniors so that they feel the same way, they feel Juvenessant, they continue to know that they are very valued, respected.

Ishanya Anthapur (29:07.075)

Yeah.

Melissa Brown (29:10.503)

And they can continue to change just because AI is new and you're in your seventies doesn't mean you can't embrace it fully and take advantage of it. Right. So Juvenessence, that's what I think I wish I could bottle up and give to everybody.

Ishanya Anthapur (29:21.006)

Would you mind sharing the name of that facility?

Melissa Brown (29:26.823)

Yeah, facility is Clark Lindsay communities in Champaign Urbana, Illinois.

Ishanya Anthapur (29:32.046)

okay, amazing. Yeah, I wasn't familiar with the term, but now I think it's a great idea. As someone in my 20s, I wish I had a little more of that wisdom that I could draw in.

Melissa Brown (29:43.444)

Sure. But you know, wisdom comes by doing and sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing. And it really is true. As much as you learn from succeeding, you learn at least as much from the times you fail. So, you know, all of us have to go through it. And I think there's a lot of value to the perspective that people have in their 20s. so, you know, embrace it, hold onto it, and don't let go of it. That'd be my advice.

Ishanya Anthapur (30:08.334)

Awesome. Thank you, Melissa. I will take that to heart, It's been lovely to have you. Thank you for the conversation and all the insight. It is so valuable and just like we want our seniors to feel valued, I hope you do too.

Melissa Brown (30:25.787)

Absolutely, I really appreciate the opportunity to be here. Thank you.

Ishanya Anthapur (30:28.994)

Thank you. Bye everyone.