Zemplee Podcast : Episode 7

Guest: Stephen Golant, PhD

Dr. Stephen Golant is a gerontologist, geographer, and Professor Emeritus in the Department of Geography at the University of Florida, where he has spent his career researching the housing, mobility, and long-term care needs of older adults. He is a Fellow of the Gerontological Society of America, a Fulbright Senior Scholar, and the author of Aging in the Right Place, a guide to helping older adults find environments where they feel competent and in control.

Ishanya Anthapur (00:13.128)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to AI powered caregiving, a weekly podcast where we're sharing stories and shedding light on the caregiving experience. I'm Ishania Anthapur, your host and part of the Zemple team. At Zemple, we're using AI powered remote monitoring solutions to rethink how caregivers can support older adults. We're making care more proactive, more connected and dignified.

and helping older adults age in place in their homes. Today, we'll dive a little bit into how where we live shapes how where we age. We'll look at some questions like how research, design, and technology can help restore a sense of control, comfort, and normalcy as our needs change as we grow older. Now, I'm excited to introduce today's podcast guest,

We are joined by the amazing Dr. Steven Gallant, Professor Emeritus at the University of Florida, and a pioneering environmental gerontologist. Dr. Steven Gallant's research has helped us understand how the places where older adults live shape their ability to age successfully. It's also helped us understand how homes can become control centers in later in life.

to understanding the role of Jaren technology in supporting independence. His work bridges theory and real world solutions for aging in place with dignity and aging in place and beyond. He's also the author of a great book, Aging in the Right Place, which is a book about helping older adults live in places where they do feel competent and do feel in control.

Welcome to our podcast, Stephen.

Stephen Golant (02:12.018)

Deleted.

Ishanya Anthapur (02:14.314)

I'll just start and we'll just dive right in. We often hear in colloquial speech or in just conversations that zip code can be a big predictor of health. How do you think that zip code in the US influences health and aging?

Stephen Golant (02:36.082)

Well, let me just reframe the question just a bit, Shania. So it's a difficult question for this reason. My focus is on how where people live match their individual lifestyles and their abilities to perform their everyday activities. So when we look at a zip code, we're not just looking at an address.

We're looking at the interaction between, on the one hand, a group of people who might have different education levels and digital literacy and personalities, and whether or not those traits fit and are congruent with the places in which they live. So there's a longstanding theoretical set of arguments that suggests, for example, that

Older people who are less competent, for example, they have less education or they have mobility issues or they have lower incomes, are more likely to have their behaviors influenced by their outside worlds. A simple example, the older woman who has walks with a cane, has some mobility difficulties, is less likely to want to go outside when it's raining outside or the slippery sidewalk.

And that was a more sensitive to and more reactive to, often in a negative way, to the characteristics of their outside world. So for example, you may be living in a zip code that is very wealthy. On the other hand, if you have mobility difficulties and you have challenges in getting around, even the best place to live by

objective standards might not be good for you. On the other hand, know, the older person who is healthy and more better educated, living in a zip code that from most standards might be considered to be not the best place to live, that older person might do much better because he or she is able to overcome

Stephen Golant (04:57.852)

the constraints of the outside world. She's more likely to take an Uber to get to places. She is more likely to be digitally glittered and be able to get her stuff from Amazon through digital transactions. So the question of what zip code is better or worse becomes much more complicated when you're trying to match up whether or not the individual's competency level

their ability to perform successfully matches up with the good or the bad aspects of where they live.

Ishanya Anthapur (05:37.817)

Thank you for clarifying. That makes a lot of sense. It isn't a one size fits all by any means. And that's something we've seen across the caregiving industry, the aging services industry. There's really nothing that's one size fits all, including where you live and the resources available to you where you live. If I'm hearing you correctly, would you say

that there are, is there any certain frameworks that someone can use to think about what is a good place for them to live and to live, especially in these older, the golden years of their life? Are there any frameworks that they can use to think about, is this going to be the right fit for me?

Stephen Golant (06:31.986)

So interestingly, that framework is a moving target. So for example, AARP, a very respected organization, they do great work, but they often focus on people in their 50s and early 60s. On the other hand, the lifestyles and the abilities of older people as they move from their early and early 60s into their 70s and 80s are very different.

Ishanya Anthapur (06:38.19)

Mmm.

Stephen Golant (07:02.504)

And one of my pet peeves with ARP, they do great research, but they fail to often distinguish the different needs of this young old versus old old group. And why this is important, and I just gave some advice actually to a group called Wallet Hub in terms of their work. And I said, one of the things you have to appreciate and the advice is that you continually have to relearn.

re-educate yourself as an older person in terms of what your residential needs are. So for example, in your early 60s, you may be concerned with, rightfully so, with a place that has a good lifestyle, a place that has part-time work opportunities or volunteer opportunities or a place that allows you to engage socially with friends and so on. But as you move into your late 60s and older,

That's not to say that these issues of a place are not important, but other factors may kick in. And one of these factors, for example, is, this a good place where I can obtain help if I need, if I have, if I'm having difficulties living independently? Is the place I'm living now going to make it easier or harder for me to get the help I need? Will I be able to get a home care where I be, is there perhaps a good quality assisted living?

community nearby. And even more importantly, which I hope we'll get into it a little bit, are family members close by.

adult children, siblings, grandchildren, are they going to be available? So part of the challenges of getting old and examining the best place to live is to recognize that it's not necessarily going to be the same throughout your period of old age. As you move into the later years, what's important early on may be less important. And you have to prioritize and

Stephen Golant (09:10.568)

Particularly you have to prioritize whether or not in your later years, this is going to be a place where you can age in place, live independently, or alternatively get the help that you need.

Ishanya Anthapur (09:21.422)

I think that's a great point. I can definitely see people though, kind of counteracting that point saying, oh, but I love where I live, you know, it worked for me in XYZ years and I'm attached now and the whole process of moving sounds like a lot of effort and things like that. Do you have any advice on

Stephen Golant (09:47.671)

It's called.

Ishanya Anthapur (09:47.768)

kind of relearning for people with that attitude.

Stephen Golant (09:51.88)

I characterized this in earlier work. I call it resistance to change. And we often are resistant to change. And this is probably the worst time in history to be resistant to change. Because everything around you is changing your options of living independently, the role that family members play, and most importantly, the arrival of digital environmental solutions, everything from

Ishanya Anthapur (10:04.206)

you

Stephen Golant (10:21.318)

and making your home safer and more responsive to your needs to being able to get the stuff you need from doctors appointments to goods and services outside through digital transaction. this is a, it's a time in which resistance to change is challenging. And I wish I had a simple answer for you. Look, even here's the paradox.

For example, you have probably an excellent system in monitoring, for example, older people's, whether or not they're falling or whether not they're engaging in any kind of unusual behaviors in their home. One of the reasons whyconsumers won't buy your product is something you have no control over. And what is that? It works too well.

Ishanya Anthapur (11:18.51)

What do mean by that? Like,

Stephen Golant (11:19.824)

It works too well. I don't want to communicate to my adult children. I don't want to communicate the fact that I'm vulnerable and I'm not doing well. This is my thing. I'll get by and I don't need your help. I get the resistance to change. I don'tneed your help. I'll get by and I sure as heck don't want a system in my house.

that is continually reminding me and others that I ain't doing so well. So, whereas your intent quite correctly is to say, we're doing this so you can live in your house longer, more independently. Their thought is, no, no, that's not how it'sgonna work. What's gonna happen is that my adult children, my outside world is gonna learn more quickly than I'm incompetent.

because of your system. And as a result, I don't want your system in your house. Now, that's in many ways irrational behavior. And it doesn't say your system actually is working well. But that's not how some older people will interpret having that monitoring approach inside their home. So I wish I had a simple solution how we can convince older people about change.

The best way I think is something we should get into is the role of the family member perhaps, because that's probably the, you know, in understanding why older people adopt technology, for example, we always talk about the sources of information. And what's important are the credibility of the sources of information. You know, we know that people get, make decisions when

famous actors on TV endorse some product, for example. We can't control that, but we can control how family members perhaps talk to their loved ones and try to communicate that, yes, I understand that you're sensitive about being monitored and I know you love this place and you don't wanna move, but let's have at least a non-confrontational.

Stephen Golant (13:45.052)

That's important. Non-confrontational talk about these issues. And we talk about change and relearning families.

in this current period, once again, have to relearn a great deal about their caregiving approach than they had been in the past. Once upon a time, I wrote an article and they called me down on it and I said that caregiving is a burden, family caregiving is a burden. And immediately I got all kinds of nasty responses saying, how can you say that? Caregiving is a burden.

Ishanya Anthapur (14:24.787)

Stephen Golant (14:27.848)

Caregiving is an act of love, caregiving an act that you want to give back, caregiving is wonderful. Of course it is, but let's be frank, caregiving is hard. Taking care of someone who has cognitive challenges, who have physical health challenges, mobility challenges, it's hard work. We have lots of letters showing that as a result of the caregiving experience, caregivers burn out. They experience their own health problems.

Ishanya Anthapur (14:38.478)

Yes.

Stephen Golant (14:59.08)

Well, now the burden of caregiving has been in many ways increased. How so? Because now the caregiver doesn't just has to be aware of the traditional services and home care services and alternative housing options that are around. Now, the family caregiver has to be an expert on something else. They have to become digital environment solution experts. They have to understand the world of the digital solution.

They have to understand how AI is going to intrude into their caregiving experience. So once again, however difficult caregiving was, and it's a burden in a good sense, it's become more of a burden because the family member has toconvince, has to educate the loved one, their mother or father, that they might benefit from digital.

Ishanya Anthapur (15:51.982)

Hello Tina, I noticed you have not moved for 45 minutes if you are okay.

Stephen Golant (16:00.934)

I heard something. So once again, it's a relearning experience, not just on the part of the older person, but on the people who they love so much who are trying to protect them and help them as much as possible.

Ishanya Anthapur (16:21.378)

Definitely, I'll just rephrase a little bit of that since it got cut off by some background noise here. But I think your point was really great, which is that the family caregiver does have the physical burden, the mental burden of the caregiving, whether or not it's coming, it's always coming out of love and care, we understand, but that doesn't mean that.

Stephen Golant (16:25.991)

Okay.

Ishanya Anthapur (16:45.826)

We can't be compassionate to that caregiver and say, yep, this is a job for you. This is taking time and effort. And then there's the added understanding they have to go through now of understanding the technology that's available, the smart home technology, for example, or even just everything.

changing in terms of the medical space with AI coming in. So it's really on families to understand some of that and pass that learning on to their loved ones and their older adults or their patients. I can see like that is a lot for the caregiver themselves to take on and have to deal with.

Stephen Golant (17:28.436)

Even to take us to a very simple digital solution, the telehealth session, where the older person communicates with his or her doctor online or through Zoom or some other software platform. So here again, the family member has potentially a new role because for the first time,

Ishanya Anthapur (17:36.003)

Yeah.

Stephen Golant (17:55.888)

relatively for the first time, the family member can be linked into that telehealth session and be part of it. So even if the family member is living, you a thousand miles away and the older person is interacting with his or her doctor in a kind of a telehealth, telemedicine session, the family member can be piped into that session and become part of the conversation, which is potentially very valuable in terms of both the well-being of the older person and the

better understanding of the family member, what's going on in the health situation of their mother or father.

Ishanya Anthapur (18:35.604)

Exactly, but that's another meeting they have to be at. That's another, they might even have to teach their mother and father like, okay, this is how you answer the call. This is all the turn your camera on. Don't play with this button, but you know, click this. So everyone is going to become basically an IT teacher going forward. I can see that. can see that.

Stephen Golant (18:40.049)

Yes.

Stephen Golant (18:58.216)

And exactly, that's the new challenge is, know, one of the questions you asked me to think about is what do I read these days, right? What am I reading? And increasingly, I don't have to read mystery novels and some nonfiction work, but there's so much changes, so many changes taking place in the AI, artificial intelligence universe and the digital environment universe.

Ishanya Anthapur (19:11.16)

Yeah.

Stephen Golant (19:27.376)

I can't keep up with that narrow focus, never mind reading something I'd really like to read much more. And the change is happening so quickly that for the average older person and the average family member, it becomes a major burden. And one, they want to get on top of it, but it's a burden nonetheless.

Ishanya Anthapur (19:40.77)

Yes.

Ishanya Anthapur (19:55.629)

Yeah, yeah, maybe exemply could start just a weekly TLDR newswire like this is what's going on and very plain and simple terms. Sometimes those are the easiest solutions to some of these information problems. Let me go ahead and ask you, so even with all the change coming in with digital,

Technology with Jaren technology, which is a phrase I love by the way. I don't know if you coined it or not Jaren

Stephen Golant (20:27.592)

I didn't point it, but it's a very useful phrase because it combines, of course, the idea of the focus on gerontology, the focus on getting old, and its interaction with the technological solutions. So it's a neat combination.

Ishanya Anthapur (20:42.002)

Exactly. It is a great combination. Do you see that technology, Jaren technology is going to help with making homes better for aging in place to put it shortly?

Stephen Golant (21:01.672)

Absolutely. we have a vast literature showing how older people when they get older often have challenges in getting to their destination, whether it's the doctors or shopping or even to their or and not even but their friends houses. And that literature, of course, emphasize the fact that people have the most difficulty of those who are

less likely to be able to get out of the house easily. What Jaren Technology Solutions, Digital Environment Solutions provide for it is really a paradigm shift. Why is it a paradigm shift? Because really for the first time, so many of the everyday tasks that older people must accomplish can be accomplished by having

stuff, information, goods, services, entertainment, cultural activities, religious participation, delivered into their homes without their leaving their homes. Now we don't want to romanticize being stuck in your home. There's no question that the more you can get out as you get older, the more beneficial it is to your mental health. But we have to be realistic. As we get older, that

that mobility to leave one's is often under assault. Some people are living in places where the weather conditions during many parts of the year are crummy and are discouraging because they go outside, they're worried about falling and injuring themselves just to get to their destination. So really for the...

Over the last decade in particular, older people have the opportunity for the first time really to rely on a different kind of solution to remain independently. And that is to bring information and goods and services in their home. What AI is doing in the simplest sense and without complicating it, which is complicated, is the possibility that

Stephen Golant (23:29.852)

the solutions that older people are able to, the digital solutions that older people are able to benefit from are going to be more personalized, more idiosyncratic, more, we say there's no one size fits all place to live. And there's no one uniform older person, everyone ages a little differently. The potential of AI as I see it is to take all these digital solutions, whether we're talking about

shopping at Amazon or having a telehealth or getting information of trying to make it more personable, more individualistic, more consistent with the consumer, with the older consumer so that it's more likely that those digital solutions will fit, will match the individual needs and make it just a little easier for them to age in place. Again,

We're not talking about all or nothing. When we talk about, for example, the effects of medicine, we say there's a 10 % approval rate or the 20 % greater chance of living longer. And that's how I see digital environmental solutions. They'renot a perfect solution, but it increases the probability that older people can age in place independently and safely and healthily in the best possible way. that's to the extent that that new tech

technology, new technology achieves that kind of goal. It can only help whether it helps, you know, 5 % of older people, 10 % of older people, it's still a major improvement. So, so, so right now, you and your viewers might know there's a whole program called age friendly communities sponsored by the World Health Organization designed to make neighborhoods and communities more age friendly, make it easier to get around and reach.

Ishanya Anthapur (25:08.663)

Yeah.

Stephen Golant (25:23.74)

That's all good. And we have to continue. in my mind, we have to shift priorities and not think about necessarily neighborhoods or community as being age friendly, but rather digital solutions as being age friendly. In other words, to make those digital devices and the digital destination that older people have to go to much more age friendly, to make them more

efficacious, make them show the person that it's useful for them to take advantage of these solutions and very importantly, of course, to make them more usable. Added to, you know, in my community in Gainesville, the surrounding communities of women right now, suing small businesses because they are in violation of the American Disabilities Act in terms of their web pages.

Ishanya Anthapur (26:20.194)

Hmm, okay.

Stephen Golant (26:21.436)

They're arguing that the web pages are not consistent with addressing older people who have disabilities, not older people, but anybody who has disabilities. So we have to make sure that as much as possible, the solutions out there not only are older people see the utility, but they also are able to access them.

As we talked about earlier, there's so many obstacles. example, verification of your password, for example, is a big pain for many older people. But we have to be careful that, just like any environment, we always talk about age-friendly neighborhoods and age-friendly community. We have to make sure digital solutions are age-friendly. They are consistent with the

the experiences and abilities of older persons. And more than that, we have to find more ways to educate. We have to bring more people into the digital literacy realm than we have in the past. If we can make 10 % of older people a year more digitally literate, that's a huge number of older people who are much more likely to benefit from this technology.

are much more likely to be able to age healthily, age independently, to age in the best possible way.

Ishanya Anthapur (27:54.327)

I like that concept a lot and I'm curious about this aspect of it with the digital literacy. we have seen across the US that there are different ways these digital literacy programs are enacted. A lot of it is by the city, maybe through your public library. They'll offer some kind of computer literacy, digital literacy courses, things like that.

But you also mentioned the role of the family being very key to this educational component. What do you do you see both of those, the public sector and the private family caregiver being crucial to this ongoing education?

Stephen Golant (28:40.816)

Absolutely. Unfortunately, so I'm a big fan of public libraries, for example, providing digital training and computer training and educating. For some older people, however, this is going to be a stretch to use. They're not going to feel comfortable.

Stephen Golant (29:07.004)

family members can play a crucial role. Grandchildren, it's just a study in fact, coming out how important grandchildren are in the caregiving experience. And who knows digital solutions better than grandchildren? Now what we're talking about, of course, is a generational distinction. I have a grandchild who at age three, I think is more proficient than I am.

Ishanya Anthapur (29:21.07)

Exactly.

Stephen Golant (29:36.05)

But the bottom line is that the younger generation has much to offer older people more than they have in the past because they have something that they can teach older people. And that is how to be more digitally literate. And what more can we ask for than to increase the emotional and social bond between an older person and their grandchild than to have some kind of common

teaching experience in a non-threatening, non-confrontational, relaxed atmosphere that benefits both. The grandchild says, hey, I'm actually, whether or not, they're not really aware of it, but say, I'm doing something useful. And the older person say, hey, I learned something here. I know how to access this site that was previously, I had trouble reaching it.

Ishanya Anthapur (30:33.698)

Right. Are there any characteristics of a digital solution that would make it easier for an older adult to use that you can think of?

Stephen Golant (30:44.712)

I think just in general, what we know is this. Getting on top of most of this digital interaction is not inherently difficult when you know how to do it, when you know which button to push, when you know what swipe to do, and when you know, once you know it, it's actually quite straightforward. The trouble, of course, is knowing when to swipe and when to push.

That's a challenge. So I think that as much as possible, we just have to keep educating older persons in how to use this technology and try to convince them that in fact, it's not that difficult once you learn how to do it.

Ishanya Anthapur (31:36.384)

Yeah, that's a good point that it is about almost the initial access to it is the barrier. Rather than getting into the weeds of it that probably most people don't even use 98 % of the features on their phones or whatnot, but you want those basic ones like I can search and.

Stephen Golant (31:43.239)

Yeah.

Stephen Golant (31:56.041)

I don't know how my Sony TV works, frankly. If someone asked me, if someone said to me, an essay on how your Sony TV works, I'd be hard put to write a compelling essay. That doesn't mean however I can maximize my utility of using the TV and so on.

Ishanya Anthapur (32:01.518)

Hahaha

Ishanya Anthapur (32:09.066)

You

Ishanya Anthapur (32:16.23)

Exactly. That's a great point. I want to point a few questions towards your research. And I'm hoping you can explain for listeners and viewers what the idea of residential normalcy is that you talk about in your research and what are some of the key factors that will determine

whether an environment is going to support resilience and well-being for an older adult.

Stephen Golant (32:45.778)

Sure. So once upon a time, when we tried to understand whether or not older people or younger people were living in a good place to live, we asked them about their residential satisfaction. How satisfied are you? I don't know if it's part of your generation. How satisfied are you with your house or your neighborhood? The trouble with that kind of question is that it's not be too technical. It's a singular scale.

In other words, you're assuming everything can be summarized from good to bad along a single question. Much more complicated than that. And what the residential normalcy theory attempted to do was to say, first, the big question is whether not older people are living in places that are consistent with their needs and their goals. OK. So how do you address that? Without going into the weeds of the past literature, et cetera,

There's at least two distinctive aspects that one wants to tap into to address that question. One, are older people living in places where it's enjoyable, pleasurable, hassle-free, whether it's they have friendly relationships, they feel emotionally connected with their house, they like the parks nearby. It's a comfortable, pleasurable, enjoyable place to live. That's one aspect of it. But there's another aspect.

and often independent. That is to say, in the course of living where you do, do you feel, you still feel like a competent human being? Do you still feel like you're in control of your life or environment? Do you feel that you're calling the shotsor somebody else is calling the shots in terms of how you live? So the second aspect of residential normalcy was asking the simple question is,

Do you feel that where you're living right now enables you to feel as independent and on top of things and to feel that you have the competence that you had, for example, when you were a younger person. And together, in the best of worlds,

Stephen Golant (35:12.166)

If someone is in their comfort zone, they generally feel positive about the pleasurable, enjoyable places that they live in. And second, if they're in their mastery zone, whether they feel that they are living in a place where they're in control of their lives and they're on top of things. And sure, we all have to take instructions and uninvited advice from other people.

But on the main, I feel at least in most of the things I do in my life, I'm still doing what I want to do. Am I on top of things? So residential normalcy occurs when both those goals are achieved. You're living in a pleasurable place. On the other hand, you're living in a place where you feel competent and in control. And when that happens, we characterize someone as feeling that they're living. And it's very subjective. It's a very subjective response, not how experts see it. It's how older people see it. When older people see

Ishanya Anthapur (36:06.019)

Right.

Stephen Golant (36:12.23)

perceive that their lives and places they live are achieving those two goals, then we characterize them as being residential normalcy, have achieving residential normalcy. And of course, as a whole thing, what happens when it doesn't happen? And then we have to find ways in which we can help other people cope. And look, even if you're vulnerable and you're physically, you know.

limited, you can still feel competent control. And one way that that is happening, as I've suggested, because of this paradigm shift, is that digital transactions, digital environmental solutions are giving ODP back some of that feelings of competency and feeling of control that they lost. Because now they say, heck, want that prescription medicine. I go on Amazon prescription, get it? Or I want that

I need this little tool for my house. I need a better can opener. I can go on Amazon. I don't have to run to the store. And interestingly,

These digital mind-mind-mind solutions are often more useful and effective. For example, if you go, for example, on an Amazon site, you can find everything about the product, whether people like them. It's not perfect, but you know something about the product. Think of what happens if you go to a typical department store these days. The staff, bless them, they don't know anything about the product that they're selling.

Ishanya Anthapur (37:51.116)

Yeah.

Stephen Golant (37:52.496)

So interestingly, in terms of feeling that you're making a competent decision and that you're once again getting control back over your life, it's made possible by the use of older people, of digital transactions, digital equipment, digital destinations, and it allows them to bring those goods and services and information to their homes, even if they can't get out as readily as they once did.

Ishanya Anthapur (38:18.092)

I like the idea of this residential normalcy framework, even though it's very subjective, and how digital solutions can help elevate the level of residential normalcy if it needs to be elevated. I think that's really interesting and really insightful.So I do have another question based on an article, not a scholarly article, but an article that you'd written about

whether you think older adults should live in sort of more siloed aging communities, or if you think there should be a lot more intergenerational dynamics. I see the benefits of both, right? In one hand, I see if you are in a place that's majority 65 plus, even majority 70, 80 plus, the environment can be shaped. The physical environment can be really shaped and geared around.

around that, around people with increasing mobility issues. We can work on aspects of safety, things like that. But then I think there's a beautiful interplay with the intergenerational living. Like you said, there's opportunities for education. There's on both sides, right? The young learning from the old and vice versa. What's your take on that? What do you think?

Stephen Golant (39:39.376)

Well, I agree with you. First of all, old age is very much an individual affair. An individual affair. There's not one way to get older. There are some people who will really thrive in some kind of a well-organized and group setting, such as independent living communities or continuing care retirement communities or even assisted living community.

There's some people who do very well. There are other older persons, however, who will.

And this is controversial because a lot of older people are very lonely today. And this is, of course, something that's very much in the literature. Not only lonely for the emotional consequences, but the researcher is saying it has negative health consequences of being lonely. But anyway, but there's pesky influence.

that comes into the picture. Not for everyone. Older people, many older people, really like their privacy.

They like controlling their personal space. They like controlling who they talk to and who talks to them. They like controlling who they eat with and who eats with them. They like controlling who knows their history, life history. Some people are not interested in sharing their life history. The other people you go, you talk to them, they pour out their life stories and they enjoy sharing.

Stephen Golant (41:25.286)

They're good and bad of their past lives. But some older people simply would prefer to have more control, again, control, and that's what it is, control over their space. And with all the negatives of living alone, and there's many, it does have one advantage for certain groups of older people. They control who they interact with.

They control who sees them in their house. They want to run around the house in their t-shirts or whatever. It's their prerogative. If they want to look slovenly, it's their prerogative. If they want to look great, it's their prerogative. If they want to eat certain kinds of food and not others, it's their prerogative. So for these individuals, again, and it's hard to know what percentage. Research doesn't.

really divide the pie up that way so easily. But there are certain groups of people who, despite all the downsides of living alone or downsides of needing more help, are willing to trade off those benefits in return for having greater control over their living environment. And their home becomes their castle. And the beauty now is, here's the beauty, once again.

sound redundant. It used to be we talked about the home as a castle to keep people out, right? We used to have a term called defensible space, keeping the intruders out and keeping the bad stuff out of the home. And that's still important. But what the digital environmental age has allowed is to bring stuff in. The home is the castle, but the home can still be a castle and be a conduit.

Ishanya Anthapur (42:58.414)

Right.

Stephen Golant (43:20.616)

to all kinds of goods and services and information coming into the home. So yes, many of these older people would benefit, absolutely right, from living in some kind of a congregate living arrangement, living with another family member.some cultural groups put greater premium on being able to take care of an older father or mother in their own home.

But once again, there's a trade-off here. And it's a sensitive one. And it's controversial because, Dr. Klein, you're suggesting that older people should remain lonely? No, we're not suggesting that. But we're suggesting that through digital solutions, they can remain alone in their house. Not necessarily lonely, alone in their house if they can interact with the outside world, if they can interact with their.

Ishanya Anthapur (44:04.782)

you

Stephen Golant (44:20.102)

religious institutions, with their friends, with the support groups digitally, and still be alone, but not have that sense of isolation, feelings of isolation and loneliness that they had before the digital environment offered them new possibilities.

Ishanya Anthapur (44:43.384)

Completely. Yeah, and I think the digital environment offers so many options as well that it can, they could still have a sense of control, right? Like, if I don't like what my caregiver made for lunch, I'm not advocating that people do this, but you can just say, I'm gonna go and order whatever I like and have it shipped to my house and whatnot.

Stephen Golant (45:09.426)

You could, here's the difference. If you're in a, even a deluxe high end senior housing situation with nice people.

Stephen Golant (45:25.67)

and you want to turn them off, you can't. Not easily. On the internet, you flip a switch and bingo. If you want that quiet, at least for part of the day, you have it.

Ishanya Anthapur (45:29.102)

you

Ishanya Anthapur (45:38.604)

There it is. It's quiet.

Ishanya Anthapur (45:44.493)

That's a great way to put it. That is a great way to put it. Yeah, these tools are at your discretion at the end of the day, even though it might seem like sometimes people think like the technologies counteracts privacy. I think if they, you know, if we did, if they educate, they were educated and had more information, they'd see, well, it really is not meant to.

you know, reveal all your secrets necessarily. It's really supposed to, I think these solutions are meant to help. At least that's what we believe. We believe in like ethical digital health solutions. And then yeah, it is at your control. It can be turned off with the unplug or the flip of a switch if it ever had to be. That's amazing. Do you live close by with any family? You mentioned your daughters all the way up in New York.

Stephen Golant (46:36.102)

No, I have only an older daughter. I have four grandchildren. And she lives in New York City. So she's a good distance away. And but nonetheless, very.

Ishanya Anthapur (46:41.602)

well.

Ishanya Anthapur (46:46.509)

Yeah.

Stephen Golant (46:55.41)

Concerned.

Ishanya Anthapur (46:56.942)

As you should be. But I'm assuming you have, you seem to be making use of the digital solutions all the time. Okay. Do you have any books that you would recommend about aging and technology for viewers, listeners, older adults eager to learn, caregivers eager to read up as well?

Stephen Golant (47:05.596)

We tried, we tried, we tried, we tried.

Stephen Golant (47:25.148)

I'll have to beg off on that one. mean, I think, that...

Stephen Golant (47:33.628)

Do good searches in terms of Amazon and from organizations that advocate for older people. there's lot of numerous, there's more popular articles right now been written about digital solutions and aging in place than ever before in history. So get out there and become more educated and rely on your.

Ishanya Anthapur (47:47.5)

Yeah.

Stephen Golant (48:03.026)

family members if you can.

Ishanya Anthapur (48:05.678)

I love that. That's a very digital forward answer. You were like, go search, find the ones you want to read and educate yourself. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Was there been, as you said, you personally are keeping trying to keep up on the AI front and learning about what AI is doing. Are you noticing anything interesting about AI in healthcare and in age tech particularly?

Stephen Golant (48:33.926)

I think that what I'm feeling right now is that, and I was just reviewing some of the new products that came out on the computer electronics show in Las Vegas. And there were dozens and dozens of new technological solutions.

Ishanya Anthapur (48:50.937)

yes.

Stephen Golant (49:02.312)

My biggest, including robotic technology, is I have threatened my daughter, adult daughter, that perhaps I won't need her, that I'll be able to purchase a robot and it will solve my problems going forward. But I think one of the, one of the, one of I think the downside right now is that there's

Ishanya Anthapur (49:05.068)

Right.

Stephen Golant (49:27.912)

We're in this, I think, this embryonic stage of technological development in which there's tremendous potential of new products. But some of them have not been fully tested. I'm not ready. I'm not sure they're ready for prime time in terms for older consumers to... Older consumers have to be convinced that the product is going to be useful and it's going to be usable. And it's not going to have what I call...

collateral damages, it's not going to be intrusive in their privacy. It's not going to increase their vulnerability for someone to scam them, which is of course is a billion dollar problem for older people. The numbers are just scary as anything. So I think that the, we do need well funded laboratories to test out.

Ishanya Anthapur (50:23.374)

Mm.

Stephen Golant (50:25.458)

these products to make sure that older people are in fact likely to use them. They have tremendous potential. We have to make sure that they are congruent with the needs and the goals of older persons in terms of both usability and usefulness. And not be too intrusive.

Ishanya Anthapur (50:32.546)

the trust.

Ishanya Anthapur (50:50.284)

Yeah,

Stephen Golant (50:53.544)

Older people don't want older people are very sensitive about this and and people are well meaning and and and and if you looked on LinkedIn, for example, some of the dialogue on LinkedIn site, for example, there's all kinds of wonderful advice. But older persons are are are. This generation is better educated, more sophisticated, it's more readily willing to live independently than their.

earlier generations, but they still need to be convinced that the products and services out there are going to be good for them, not just good for the merchant and good for the retailer, but also good for them.

Ishanya Anthapur (51:41.576)

Yes, in your research too, I noticed you talked about how trust, like building trust in that older adult is so important for any of these new technologies coming out. And I think that's the challenge.

Stephen Golant (51:54.694)

And it's in this day and age in all realms of our life to not to be trustful.

Ishanya Anthapur (52:02.642)

Yes, yes, yeah, like you mentioned the scam is just crazy. Although I do love that, like my iPhone introduced a new feature where they kind of highlight the scam callers. So yeah, that's a good one. I'm confident.

Stephen Golant (52:04.348)

We.

Stephen Golant (52:14.236)

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Let's hope. We'll get better at it. I think we're only in grade one or two in terms of the development of digital technology. We have long way to go, but I think everything looks more optimistic, I think, than in the past.

Ishanya Anthapur (52:34.702)

Well, you heard it here folks, we're only in grade one or two of technology. That means we've got a long way to go and I'm excited to be on the journey. Thank you so much, Steven, for joining us and sharing your thoughts. I am thoroughly impressed by your research and by your commitment to digital technology.

Stephen Golant (52:46.397)

My turn.

Stephen Golant (52:59.816)

Thank you very much.

Ishanya Anthapur (53:03.886)

And if people, if viewers wanted to find you or get in contact or find out more about you, do you have a website that they could go to or?

Stephen Golant (53:13.928)

The easiest way actually is to find me on LinkedIn, believe it or not. and you don't have to actually have a paying, I don't think you have to have a paid program just to access. And I'm more than happy everyone find me on LinkedIn, they can message me and I'm delighted to respond.

Ishanya Anthapur (53:39.338)

Yeah, I think LinkedIn free tier, should be able to connect with everybody. It has been such a joy to have you, Dr. Stephen Gallant, everybody. And we will link his LinkedIn, we will link some of the articles he's contributed to and written, all in our show notes, which you'll be able to access. Thank you. Thank you once again.

Stephen Golant (53:59.752)

Thank you very much.